The problem with Ulduar is Naxxramas.

April 27, 2009 at 6:00 pm 80 comments

I love Ulduar.

I love the scenery.  I love the lore — what I understand of it, anyway (I’ve never paid too much attention to that aspect of the game, which is ironic for someone who considers herself a compulsive role-player).  I love the boss fights with their fun, occasionally gimmicky mechanics; the trash pulls that require creativity and thought; the unexpected humor (XT-002′s voice, AoE mobs named Trash and V0-L7R-0N spring readily to mind); and especially the newness of it all.

I love that healing is hard again; that I have to utilize my rotations rather than simply spam Chain Heal on the melee.

What I don’t love — and what actually caused me to end last night’s raid in tears (something I don’t dare confess to the guild-at-large) — was the Naxx-inspired cockiness that we took into Ulduar with us the first time we zoned in, and the inevitable crash that followed it.

I don’t think Ulduar is “too hard.”  On the contrary, compared to SSC and TK — The Burning Crusade‘s sophomore tier — Ulduar’s easy modes are… well, easy.  Laugh if you like, but we didn’t down Void Reaver the first time we attempted him.  It took two days for us to master that particular fight, and we raced the enrage timer every week for a month before we could consider the “Loot Reaver” on farm.

I stopped counting after the first few dozen deaths (and I was playing a warlock at the time, so they were plentiful!), but I rather suspect that A’lar’s trash wiped us more times than Razorscale, Deconstructor and Ignis combined.

So, no, the problem isn’t Ulduar itself.

The problem is that Naxxramas was so easy by comparison to the raids that preceded it that we actually forgot what it was like to progress through new content.  Once upon a tier, we congratulated ourselves when it “only” took a week or two of raiding to defeat a new boss.  Now, we feel like we’ve failed if it takes more than two or three attempts, let alone nights.

Tensions are running high in my 25-man raid.  We’re making decent progress — nine bosses fell (or were redeemed) in our second full week of raiding — but we’re certainly not one- or two- shotting encounters like we were in Naxxramas when it was new.

To be fair, most of us don’t want to.  We complained bitterly that Naxx was “too easy”; by the time Ulduar was released, we were desperate for a challenge.  (Granted, Sartharion 3D was a challenge — but it was also a hard-mode, so we tended to view it as an encore performance rather than a legitimate step in our progression.)

Still, there’s a difference between wanting to wipe in Ulduar and actually wiping in Ulduar.  In the heat of the moment, it’s easy to forget that this is exactly what we’ve been crying for, and start to lose our patience and eventually our tempers.  This happened repeatedly in Saturday’s 25-man raid, as the same officers and veterans I count on to help me lead when Keaton isn’t around (and he wasn’t this weekend) tore into each other for perceived slights, mistakes, lapses in judgment and even disagreements over strategy.  As hard as I tried to run interference — reining in tempers, soothing ruffled feathers, mediating the inevitable disputes privately while remaining outwardly positive — I failed utterly to control the raid and ended the night thoroughly exhausted, demoralized and in tears.

Even Sunday’s Ulduar 10 was rough.  We cleared everything before General Vezax in just five hours, with a dozen wipes along the way — most of them on Mimiron.  Given that this was only our second week of raiding, I think this is outstanding; GuildOx agrees, and ranks us as #1 Horde-side and #6 on the server (which is pretty awesome, if you ask me).  Nonetheless, the bickering that was so prevalent in Saturday’s Ulduar 25 raid polluted our usually relaxed Ulduar 10, and far from enjoying the new content that I claim to love, I find myself dreading it.

Don’t get me wrong: I really enjoy the people I play with.  I’ve said over and over again that they absolutely make the game for me, and it’s true.  It’s the short-temperedness and the peevishness among my core raid — two very recent developments — that are slowly spoiling the endgame for me.  It may be a bit of a cop-out to name Naxxramas as the culprit, rather than the players themselves (or the guild leader who is accustomed to leading by example, and floundering now that she needs to take a more hands-on approach…), but I sincerely believe that the precedent that it set six months ago is hurting us now.

*  *  *

As I was writing this (in between SQL queries at work >.>), Matticus posted a theory about Ulduar frustrations that has since been picked up by WoW Insider:

Many guilds have forgotten what it’s like to hit a progression wall.  Raiders who felt good about themselves and their abilities started having doubts about themselves.

This is what we’re experiencing.  Exactly.

For us, the problem lies in the fact that these doubts have manifested as fits of temper — and, in some cases, depression — that are quickly snowballing through the raid.  I’m going to have to give some serious thought to combating them, because I refuse to let Naxxramas of all things break my guild six months after we trounced it.

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10 Ways Not to Fail as a Female Guild Leader Ulduar = … the new BG?

80 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Matticus  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:59 am

    You’re nine bosses into Ulduar? There is nothing wrong with that. This is where your veteran raiders come in handy. The ones that have been playing since BWL or what not, or even Tempest Keep as you’ve said. Some of that veteran presence will help a lot towards maintaining raid discipline and calming your players down.

    Could always remind your players that the alternative is to go back into Naxx. ^^

    Reply
    • 2. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:12 am

      I lied. We’re actually only 8 bosses into Ulduar 25. Parallel progression (and the six weekly raid days that accompany it, between the 10- and 25- man tracks ;.;) are taking their toll.

      Unfortunately, it seems to be the vets who are the bulk of the problem. These are the dedicated few (no achievement pun intended >.>) who never stopped min/maxing, even in Naxxramas, and are now thoroughly frustrated by the “bad habits” that Naxx engendered.

      Once we’ve zoned out of Ulduar, even the most critical among us will admit that the raid as a whole is doing well, especially given our 3-day, 10-hour raid schedule. It’s just in the heat of the moment that tempers flare. That’s what I need to work to curtail.

      I like the Naxx threat, though! I am so going to use that next time I see an opening.

      Reply
  • 3. Blessing  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:13 am

    I have to agree nine bosses in is nothing to sneeze at! As I’ve just posted on this subject, Naxx really did hurt Raiders habits. It made people lazy and sloppy in the most part. We didn’t have to worry about everyone bring their A game, or being preapared. We could carry people through Naxx with no real issues. We didn’t have to worry about CC. The list goes on.

    I think once people realize Ulduar isn’t a push over hopefully they’ll buckle down and your team will be strong and ready to push content!

    Reply
    • 4. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:18 am

      *fingers crossed*

      That Naxx has made us lazy seems to be the prevailing sentiment in the WoW blogs I read, and our General Vezax attempts (in10-man) last night -really- drove the point home. I raided as DPS throughout The Burning Crusade, so I never actually learned how to conserve mana as a healer. It just wasn’t necessary in Naxx. But Vezax negates almost ALL mana regen (no water shield, no mana tide totem, no replenishment), so it was a real test of skills I didn’t even have.

      The advice from the healer channel was wonderful, btw.

      “Don’t heal things that don’t need healing.”

      Thanks, guys. ^.^

      Reply
  • 5. *vlad*  |  April 28, 2009 at 5:19 am

    TK trash was as hard as anything I have seen in Ulduar.
    I have yet to come across a Vashj or Kaelthas, though.

    Ulduar is harder than Naxx, yes, but probably more of a Mount Hyjal than SSC or TK.

    Reply
    • 6. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:21 am

      Mimiron reminded me a little, tiny bit of the Vashj encounter, but without the randomness and personal responsibility — which, come to think about it, were what made Lady Vashj feel so epic.

      So, nevermind. Superficial similarities, at best.

      Hopefully, the real challenge will come in the hard modes. I definitely agree with the comparison to Hyjal over SSC or TK.

      Reply
  • 7. DW-Redux  |  April 28, 2009 at 9:01 am

    I’ll agree somewhat that Naxx did loosen peoples raidmuscles so to speak.
    But I also think that the whole concept of raiding has sunk in much deeper with people in raids now. Hell, most of them has been doing it for years now. That was not true in vanilla, and it certainly was not true on TBC where the flood of new players was at it’s highest.
    XT-002 is really Brut with a very advanced twist, and yet people are downing him on their first or second raid, thats kindda really amazing. So I do think that people are forgetting the point, that we are becomming very good at raiding as a whole.
    As an example; one of my friends is a new player. He just dinged 80 and are rolling in a guild of likeminded individuals. They are still having a very hard time grasping the concept of Patchwerk.

    Reply
    • 8. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:34 am

      That’s an interesting point. I started playing just before TBC launched, so I missed the entire vanilla experience. By the time we entered Karazhan for the first time, the progression guilds were halfway through T5.

      I still haven’t seen Sunwell, even in a “retro raid.”

      Now that I think about it, the guys who are the most frustrated with our recent performance are those who did raid (albeit with other guilds) in vanilla WoW. They were pretty serious then, but have dialed back on the raid hours and prefer our casual schedule — but would still like to see it paired with a more hardcore attitude.

      You’ve given me a bit to think about; thanks!

      Reply
  • 9. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:05 am

    WordPress ate my comments. /cry

    Reply
    • 10. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:27 am

      But you discovered comment threading in the process!

      Go you!

      Reply
      • 11. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:27 am

        And you’re talking to yourself … freak. :p

        Reply
  • 12. Tara  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:24 am

    It’s interesting, because my guild has 3 10-mans raiding Ulduar at various rates of progress. One group has downed 10 bosses, I think, my group has downed 5, and the other group is in between. I think each group has a different outlook on it, and for us it’s mostly just about seeing the encounters and doing better and figuring things out. We wiped last night so many times but when we finally pulled everything together and downed a boss it was so much more of an accomplishment than “learning” any of the bosses in Naxx.

    More challenge = more rewarding.

    Reply
    • 13. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 10:39 am

      I wish we could get another solid 10-man off the ground, but we just don’t have the tanks for multiple runs — and I’m loathe to recruit tanks for 10-mans that I will inevitably have to bench for 25′s.

      I definitely agree with this: “more challenge = more rewarding.” It’s great to hear that you’re having fun in Ulduar. :D

      Reply
  • 14. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 11:35 am

    I have a question for you regarding difficulty. Can you explain to me why Naxx being so “easy” is a bad thing? I don’t see anyone quitting, guilds falling apart, people at war with one another.

    But now I see it all over my guild due to your precious Ulduar. We have people quitting all over the place, moving onto other guilds, because half of the guild’s members can’t keep up with the difficulty.

    Ulduar has resulted in the destruction of my guild and a major rebuilding process.

    I ask you, why do you feel this is a good thing?

    Why can’t “hard mode” be hard for the freakish 4%, and “normal mode” be on the same level as Naxx? I will say again, nobody was quitting, no guilds were being destroyed during the Naxx era.

    It will never cease to amaze me how you, the elite, will always get your way, while the rest of us are pretty much stopped in our tracks. I am forced once again to choose between my friends and loot.

    That, sir, is wrong, in a game that is intended to be ‘social’.

    The problem with Ulduar is whining elitist guilds who could care less about the rest of us.

    Reply
    • 15. Keufluis  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:01 pm

      Now this is where I disagree. The reason I first got into WoW was because raiding was difficult, and I was looking forward to something like that. If you think about it closely Naxxramas in wrath was the only instance where you did not need cc to kill trash. Ulduar is just making its way back to how WoW raiding has always been.

      Personally I am in a guild that has downed only 6 bosses in 25 man, and even though we think it is a challenge, it’s still not super hard like Sunwell. Sure there are some things that can be tough, but with the right strategies almost every boss fight becomes trivial, except mimiron of course -_-.

      Reply
      • 16. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:14 pm

        Only 6 bosses.

        My guild, which oneshots KT and Maly, has slammed into the meatgrinder that is Ulduar with such force that none of us even saw it coming.

        We have barely managed to stumble through Flame Leviathan before the apocalypse. Due to wipe, after wipe, after wipe on Razorscale et al, we have lose over 10% of our guild members to better guilds. All of the officers have been asked to start recruiting while we take two weeks off to restructure. If Ulduar wasn’t insane, we’d still be together. The ones that remain are friends. I am a pretty good player. I could probably get into a better guild. But I don’t want to leave my friends.

        I have two points.

        1) Hard mode (should be) for hard mode.
        2) WoW should not be run by the (I’ll be generous) 10% of guilds at the upper-echelon. I am always amazed by this business strategy, “Let’s alienate the other 90% of guilds from content and watch them fall apart! That’ll keep those subscription payments rolling in! Genius!”

        I suppose you could say that “Well, hard Raids got WoW to 14 million players, they must be doing something right”. To an extent, I suppose I can agree with this. But I don’t think that’s the only factor that gets people to play.

        Blizzard can have it both ways. They had it both ways splendidly with Sartharion. The freaks can have the hard mode. I’d just like to see content while it’s relevant. This won’t happen in the current incarnation of the game, unless I leave my friends for loot.

        Reply
        • 17. tatsumasa  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:04 pm

          why do you feel that everyone has the right, and is obligated, to run every raid instance? i for one am tired of people thinking they are ready for naxx25 because they ding’d 80 yesterday. you can’t do that with ulduar, and maybe if there was some sort of os/eoe/naxx attunement for ulduar, people wouldn’t be bitching as much as they are.

          Reply
          • 18. tatsumasa  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:05 pm

            edit: switch ‘obligated’ to ‘entitled’

            Reply
          • 19. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:21 pm

            I wish there had been some sort of attunement for Ulduar — if only because it would have given us something concrete to work for in that long dry spell before 3.1 was released.

            I think the Malygos key really was well-done. I would have loved to have seen something similar for Ulduar — except maybe instead of requiring one raid member to have the key, Ulduar could have required five members with keys … or something like that.

            The Vashj and Kael vials (back when they only dropped one each >.>) were a bit much, but I like the idea of attunements in general. Even something like BT’s quasi-attunement via Hearts of Darkness would have been a welcome diversion in T7.

            Reply
          • 20. Wes  |  May 1, 2009 at 6:45 am

            @ tatsumasa
            I agree with the OP. But I think everyone should be eventually “entitled” to see all the instances and content.
            I think naxx being too easy certainly made our guild kind of lazy and we’re casual raiders. I think because naxx was so easy it was a big smack in the face for most people, a wake up call really.

            What I’m tired of is people with your style of attitude. People are going to be frustrated when they get stuck after having it so easy, nature of the beast.

            In all honesty though, they should have done an attunement for it. Would have forced people to go through Naxx and gear up better.

            Reply
        • 21. Krugeroff  |  May 6, 2009 at 8:11 am

          Our guild, which I subsequently left had similar issues. The problem in our case was a mix of two things:
          A disparity in player skill, and the entitlement attitude.
          We had quite a few people who were competent. These were the players who still min/maxed and were also the ones who hit 80 first.
          So when we started hitting Naxx, we had tremendous success. 2 wings in 10s the first night. It rocked. These 10 people were wearing all level 78 blues or higher. They had run 2 weeks of heroics. They had a couple badge epics.
          The next wave of players to hit 80 were a little more casual. But they immediately wanted to get into the raids where they saw us having fun and getting loot.
          We then started having issues. Low dps, sloppy play, and our progress slowing to about 50% of what we were doing. A lot of these people were the ones who were bring their newly dinged 70s (3rd or 4th alt) straight into Karazan in Outlands greens.
          When we tried to implement standards (healing throughput, min dps, hp and def for tanks. We made them super low to accommodate the majority of the guild. We were after all a casual guild.
          We then got called ‘elitist’. The fact of the matter was that if we let them go in with a group of 10 people with these low minimum standards, they would have failed.

          TL:DR version:
          Those of us who put in the work to make the raiding program work eventually left after weeks and months of people resenting having any sort of restriction placed on their ability to go get their “phat lewtz”

          Reply
      • 22. lurkerbelow  |  April 29, 2009 at 7:06 am

        I’m glad there are people who enjoy challenges in game. It gives wow a really deep community to me. I did too at one point. Wiping on TK trash was a pain but when you got past it, man it was a great feeling. Then due to various things wow turned back into a game for personal enjoyment. To me challenges were what happened in my daily life, I didn’t want or need wow to have that. WoW was more of a release.That said I’m glad ulduar and hard modes have been introduced because people who want that, it’s there and pleases you. Naxx didn’t so much but so far, from what y’all are saying ulduar is. and that’s awesome.
        There are also easier (compared to the hard modes) encounters people can also do too. And they’re not you, nor are they me, they’re them. Gaming as long as we have it should be evident there are people who play unique to themselves. (look at the people who LOVE healing, other who love tanking bosses’s knees or dpsing from distance). Blizzard has managed to walk the tightrope of jack of all trades master of none pretty stinkin’ well.
        <3

        - J

        mastercontrolcast.wordpress.com

        Reply
    • 23. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:13 pm

      I’ve never considered myself “elite.” My guild raids 10 hours a week and is currently ranked 15th on the server. We still identify as casual, and while we are making a conscious effort to “serious up” for Ulduar, we will never be on the cutting edge of progression or in competition for server firsts. It’s just not what motivates us.

      That said: Naxxramas did break guilds — or, rather, the dearth of progression opportunities beyond Naxx did. After six months of shard farming, even ostensibly casual guilds like mine were starting to stagnate and bleed members who were turned off from the game by the monotony and general lack of challenge inherent to the tier.

      I’m not complaining that Naxx was “too easy” because I disdain casuals; on the contrary, I fully support Blizzard’s decision to make Wrath’s entry-level raid accessible to a greater cross-section of the WoW population.

      No, the real problem was twofold:

      (1) Naxx was easier than anything that preceded it, which not only disappointed the veterans (who were looking forward to new challenges), but also lulled many new raiders into a false sense of security. These “Children of Wrath” (as I’ve heard them described) simply weren’t prepared for the step-up in difficulty to Ulduar, and are struggling now as a result.

      If things are this difficult for us, when we’ve only “forgotten” how to progress, then I can only imagine how trying they must be for a guild that never had to learn! You have my sympathies in this regard.

      (2) There was nowhere to go after Naxx — no new challenges to overcome (unless you consider achievements a satisfying alternative to content, of course; most of my raiders don’t). If Ulduar had been released three months after WotLK, then the fact that Naxx was “too easy” wouldn’t have been a problem because the progression guilds could have moved on while the casuals continued to farm T7. It would have been a win-win, and presumably more in line with what Blizzard was attempting to accomplish.

      What we saw instead was a lose-lose, with Naxx setting more “casual” players up for failure and boring more “elite” players out of the game.

      Reply
      • 24. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:20 pm

        You are elite.

        And a guild I loved has been mostly destroyed by Ulduar, which was supposed to have a hard mode for elite guilds.

        It’s fascinating, really, how Blizzard had this game completely figured out – in my humble opinion. All they had to do was have it both ways. Normal mode for normal guilds, hard mode for elite ones. I was looking forward to being able to sneak in on normal mode, get some good loot, and start taking our pathetic little shot at hard mode this or that.

        Unless they nerf this place “into the ground”, that’s never going to happen, and to be honest, I’m not completely sure we’ll ever be able to recover and raid again before Ulduar is ancient history.

        Reply
        • 25. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:45 pm

          I read somewhere that a hardcore player is one who raids more than you do, and a casual is one who raids less. I guess there’s some truth to that. ^.^

          With all due respect, what you’re suggesting (re: normal modes vs. hard modes) is exactly what Blizzard is doing with Ulduar. The blues have acknowledged on several occasions what we can all see for ourselves: that hard modes are an attempt to compromise between two very different groups of players (and the vast spectrum of us in between).

          I’m sorry that your guild is struggling. Truly, I am! We are, too … although in our case, it’s not because Ulduar is too hard, but because Naxx was so easy that we forgot what it was like to learn, adapt, persevere and overcome. It’ll come back to us, in time. Hopefully, it will kick in for your guild too.

          Anyone who raided in vanilla WoW or TBC knows that nights and weeks — even, nether forbid, months! — of wipes on a new boss are to be expected. If your guild members don’t understand that or simply haven’t had occasion to learn it yet … well, I think you’ve made my my point for me, at least insofar that the problem with Ulduar is the precedent set by Naxxramas.

          Reply
    • 26. snwborder52  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:22 pm

      I have to disagree with you.

      You say that you are “The rest of us”, and i think this is a misnomer. Most guilds are not in your positions, are are doing quite fine in Ulduar. My guild is a middle/upper tier guild. We are not elite by any means. We have downed 4 bosses in Ulduar, currently working on kologarn/ignis (recently had a few healers stop playing due to RL issues, halting progression on 25) Were up to Hodir in 10 man.

      Ulduar, compared to real guild killers like Vashj and Kael’thas is a joke. The instance truly isnt that hard, but people who started playing late in BC and early wrath have not had the opportunity to really work on progression. This is their first instance of it, and it might lead to some problems.

      Honestly, if people are leaving your guild, thats a problem with how your guild is run, and the types of members in your guild. Typically, people don’t leave a guild because they wipe for a week or two in a new raid instance.

      Ulduar is a very solid instance, I am glad with what they have done.

      Reply
      • 27. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:25 pm

        They’re leaving for guilds that are progressing faster. They’re leaving because some of our members are not as good as others, my guild is primarily older folks (40-60 year olds).

        It is unfortunate that we have lost friends to other places over Ulduar. We had a very good thing going, a lot of fun, and now all of that is replaced with yelling at one another, frustration and stress that people in my guild, quite frankly, don’t want to deal with.

        Maybe we’re the worst guild in the history of wow? We’ve managed to get to the council in BT before the nerf. I’d like to see numbers on how many guilds are breezing through Ulduar. I don’t really know. The place seems impossible to me, and I’m a pretty good raid healer. Just a paladin, though.

        Reply
        • 28. Ron  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:29 pm

          You mentioned that you were able to get to the council in BT before the nerf ( a feat my guild was never able to get done). Could it be possible that you’re not the same guild you used to be? When change is very gradual then its very hard to notice.

          Its possible that because Naxx was so easy, your members got used to the easy content. Now that the content is starting to get challenging again, your guild is having trouble shaking off the rust.

          Also, harder content isn’t meant to break guilds up, its meant to unite guilds in challenge. If your guild is breaking up because of the difficulty then I would guess that there are aspects of your raiding that your members are not happy with. It could be that they feel that you guys aren’t serious enough about raiding? Maybe they’re starting to feel like they’re carrying certain people? It could be multitude of reasons. I’m not trying to attack your guild, I’m merely giving reasons that I have seen tear guilds apart.

          PS: If you made it to BT in BC pre-nerf then I have a hard time thinking of your guild as casual.

          Reply
    • 29. bashfullson  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:22 pm

      Your logic is flawed.
      The raiding community is not divided into the “freakish 4%” and all the rest.
      There are more divisions and for a lot of the raiding community Naxx simple was not hard enough. My guild raids 3 times a week, we have some server first kills but are not a hardcore raiding guild( we are on 7 bosses in ulduar now) and we cleared naxx 25 in 1 frikking week. A lot of the fights in naxx felt stale and were soo simple that there wasnt any real tactic besides tank and spank( basic example: Grand Widow faerlina became tank and spank in the third week when our tank could go through the enrage and the healers could heal through the AOE).

      It is true that less guilds disbanded during the naxx days, but i think that a lot of people including me would stop playing WOW if Ulduar was of the same level as naxx, even the easy way.

      We now have an instant that has content for wat you call ” the elitist 4%”(hard modes) and has content for the capable raider.(easy mode), because compared to for example BWL, Ulduar normal mode is NOT HARD.

      I am very sorry, but if you can not grasp things like looking at your raid position, doing correct targeting, researching your dps-rotation and maximising your gear, then you really haven’t learned anything from your time playing WOW.

      Reply
      • 30. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:30 pm

        I’m interested that you think raid positioning, targeting, knowing DPS is all it takes to down the bosses of Ulduar. In my experience, it takes much more than this. Maybe our tanks are horrible. Maybe the healing is horrible. Our numbers are comparable to other guilds, but Ulduar has destroyed us. I’m only going from what I have observed in the first couple of weeks in there. The utter destruction of our guild and a massive rebuilding process.

        I feel it is unfair, and even a betrayal, to lull players to sleep with an instance like Naxx, only to turn around and obliterate us with Ulduar.

        We are fully geared from Naxx 25 – well, we were before the apocalypse – and have had no success in Ulduar whatsoever, attempting to use the guides and imagery given on places such as tankspot et al.

        I’m glad you’re having fun, though.

        Reply
        • 31. argojax  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:00 pm

          Your second paragraph is the OP’s point. Naxx and the other T7 content was way more forgiving than any of the raids that came before it. Blizzard over corrected. Accessible doesn’t have to mean mindless.

          Reply
    • 32. Liore  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:44 pm

      Oh man, Noraa, I am vastly amused that you are ranting against elites while being a pretentious jerk. Calling people “freaks” is hardly showing us how awesomely normal you are.

      No one thinks it’s a good thing that Ulduar is killing your guild. My guild raids 9 hours a week, and has downed 4 bosses in Ulduar. We are very much not hardcore.

      However, Naxx put my guild in jeopardy. We cleared it — our very first time finishing all available content as a guild in four years — and then .. we sat. And got tired. And listless. And people started looking at new games and not bothering to log on. We were BORED, and boredom is death for a guild.

      Also, some of us freaks, no matter how many bosses our guild kills, really enjoy the theorycrafting and minmaxing aspects of the game. One of the big reasons I play WoW is because I love the challenge of a new boss. We walked into Naxx on our first night ever and killed five bosses. Where is the challenge? For my guild, and many others, there was no satisfaction.

      Different people play the game for different things. My guild will eventually go for Hard Modes and achievements, because that’s what we do. (Although it will take us a while, because that’s also what we do.) Your guild may not have wanted to do that. And that’s cool! Blizz put in the opportunity for both paths in Ulduar.

      I’m sorry your guild is dying, but you’re painting a lot of people with your “hardcore freaks” brush, and I don’t think it’s fair.

      Reply
      • 33. The Claw  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:41 pm

        Same here Liore. I pretty much quit WoW over the extreme low difficulty of T7 raid content. My account was still active but I hardly logged on for a couple of months prior to 3.1. If we’d cleared Ulduar as easily as we cleared Naxx (we’re currently 7 bosses down on 25-man and 10 on 10-man), I think that would have been the end of WoW for me, and many others in my guild.

        Reply
  • 34. teknis  |  April 28, 2009 at 11:57 am

    I do agree with you that naxx has gotten a lot of people into that steamroller set of mind. The guild I’m in is still progressing thru naxx-10 with also trying out uldar-10 and we still hit brick walls, but at least we can joke about it the next night. Its a shame that people really forgotten about how it feels to actualy progress anymore, with all the people that can sucessfully pug naxx-25 now thinking its a cakewalk.

    Let’s face it, uldar is a slap in the face compaired to the pat on the back naxx was. Besides, if you ever want to know what a brick wall feels like, pug a vaults-25 and try to down emalon…. best damn reality check in my opinion, lol

    Reply
  • 35. Adgamorix  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    I think Ulduar is perfectly tuned (well, pretty close anyway) for the more casual guilds. The expansion has been out for a whopping two weeks, there’s no reason why PuGs should be clearing it already. Right now there’s not even really clear strategies on the web, we’re still making our own up as we go.

    Naxx was different – the bosses had been fought for months in Vanilla, and nothing was really different. We were able to waltz in and figure it out in a single pull.

    There’s nothing wrong with being a few weeks or months behind in progression. Guilds that are having problems should keep farming Naxx for their final upgrades, and farm the bosses in Ulduar that they can. I feel bad for guilds that are struggling now, but I love the level of difficulty.

    Reply
    • 36. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 4:08 pm

      The “making it up as we go” is my favorite part. :D

      Reply
  • 37. Jen  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    It’s a bit frustrating that my guild is facing the same issues… People get angry after wiping on a boss after an hour, so we just hop on to the next and hope. How are we supposed to kill something difficult if we only get to try for an hour? We cleared Naxx 25 within the first reset and that made us feel too good… It looks like so many (including the RL, unfortunately) just don’t remember how we used to wipe in TBC, and they’re ignoring the “right” way of progressing just to keep (some) people happy.

    Reply
  • 38. Baelor  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    I couldnt agree with you more. Naxx was so easy you could carry a lot of dead weight. People got sloppy. Trash was all group up and AoE, Crowd Control was non existent. I am so happy that Ulduar is harder. I dont like to wipe, but if a fight is hard enough to cause is to wipe to non stupid reasons, then its so much more satisfying to finally down the boss. Raid instances shouldn’t be cleared in 1 or 2 night when first opened.

    Reply
    • 39. Noraa  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:22 pm

      I’m amused how you consider fellow raiders “Dead weight”. They’re my friends. What are they to you?

      Reply
      • 40. john thorpe  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:45 pm

        Well, maybe your friends need to learn to not stand in the fucking fire. Maybe they need to keep at Naxx 10/25 until they have their BIS gear. Maybe they need to spend some gold on the best enchants and gems. Maybe they need to take JC or LW or BS or whatever profession nets them a raid bonus, and keep mining/herbs/skinning on their alts.

        If they’re not doing these things, and if they’re expecting me to drag them through Ulduar, then yes…they’re dead weight.

        To put it another way, say this were bowling instead of wow. If you and your friends want to get drunk and stumble around and use the house equipment and fumble-fuck your way to a 130 score…feel free. But if I’m looking to join a league and win a championship, I expect people on my team to be sober, sharp, and show up with the right equipment. In your league, your friends are cool. In my league, they’re dead weight…and Ulduar doesn’t let you carry dead weight.

        Reply
        • 41. LightningJynx  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:20 pm

          Normally I only browse through comments but the vehemence and disdain in your comments have forced me to speak. I am going through a similar experience as the person you are responding to. But maybe instead of flinging spite at her, you might be either understanding or suggestive? Yes, not all of us are hardcore raiders, and a lot of us were spoiled by Naxx. At least I understand this and take it into consideration when dealing with Ulduar. It is definitely a very big step in difficulty compared to the snooze fest that was Naxx, but calling her guild mates dead weight because their entire WoW time doesn’t revolve around raiding is not only rude but is what leads to the separatism that has infected WoW. It is this attitude that leads to the name calling and people becoming ostracized in trade chat and other places because they aren’t as 1337 as your friends.

          From what I understand of what Blizzard was trying to do with Wrath, this chasm to overcome shouldn’t be there. Maybe these guilds should have tried doing hard mode in Naxx before attempting Ulduar, but I know plenty of people in Ulduar who have no desire to accomplish hard modes for nothing more than an achievement. I thought that endgame content was supposed to be obtainable to anyone, even the “casuals”? And from the little I have seen and heard of Ulduar it isn’t exactly the case. This place is rough on the prepared and even rougher on the unsuspecting. I agree with the author, Naxx lulled us into complacency and laziness. But people like you act like it is a crime to be able to PuG any kind of raid. Really, I thought this was an MMO, I thought this game was about being social and building some form of social skills.

          TL:DR Get off your high horse and learn how to speak to people with a modicum of politeness. Everyone is not as 1337 as you are, and that is perfectly acceptable. Maybe in your opinion they should go play “My Little Pony Online” but we are the types that make up a decent amount of WoW subscribers, and we are here to stay.

          Reply
          • 42. Ron  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:45 pm

            Just because its accessible doesn’t mean it won’t require work. Put it this way.. if Ulduar was as easy as Naxx, then why go to Ulduar? Might as well stick to Naxx where you know every fight. Ulduar is meant to be after Naxx in terms of progression and difficulty.

            Actually if you want to really be accurate its Naxx > Malygos > Sarth +drakes > Ulduar.

            Reply
          • 43. The Claw  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:45 pm

            You’ve completely missed the point if you think the only alternative to being a horrible raider is to “have your entire WoW time revolve around raiding”.

            All I saw from john thorpe’s post is that if you want to take on challenging content, you have to approach it as a challenge and focus your efforts on overcoming it, not fool around and treat it as a joke, just because you could do that on NON-challenging content and still get free loot.

            Reply
        • 44. Sageclaw  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:28 pm

          Total Richard.

          Reply
      • 45. Jason  |  April 28, 2009 at 12:57 pm

        You’re kidding me right Noraa? You never get angry at your RL friends when they show up late for an engagement or fail to follow through on a commitment?

        I am in a very casual 10 man guild. We have downed FL twice and that’s it. We spent maybe 40 minutes working on XT before people started wanting to give up and move on. 40 lousy minutes.

        In addition, we had folks show up without flasks, without repair money, and with terrible specs. These people are supposed to be your friends right? What is wrong with expecting my friends to value my time? I show up with repair money, flasks, buff food, and having read all the strats. If other players don’t want to put that kind of effort into WoW, that’s fine, but then don’t sign up for the raid. By showing up unprepared, they are wasting my time. If they were truly my friends, they wouldn’t do that.

        The article is all about how Naxx has spoiled everyone and given them bad habits. No wonder people want to give up after a couple of XT wipes, they’re not used to wiping. No wonder folks aren’t coming prepared. As DPS I could show up to a naxx raid with half durability equipment and be fine, and I certainly didn’t need to burn any flasks.

        I love my guildies but I’ve already thought about leaving. Either the guild leadership needs to crack down and only allow prepared raiders to come along, or I’m going to be leaving. I don’t mind wiping all night if I think people are trying their best. I’m even patient enough to sit through “extra” tries because one person just can’t get it. But I’m not willing to waste my time wiping on bosses because my “friends” aren’t prepared.

        Reply
        • 46. elenaltarien  |  April 28, 2009 at 11:07 pm

          I think you hit the nail on the head there. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

          Reply
      • 47. Architects  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:19 pm

        “Dead Weight” think of it this way in realation to a job. You can be great friends with someone you work with, but if their work ethic sucks, they are just dead weight

        Reply
      • 48. Brez  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:54 pm

        So, this situation reminds me of when I was in high school, and I wanted to start a band with my friends, and two of us were really great and the other two sucked.

        What did we do? Did we go “oh, bummer, no band, huh?” No. We worked hard and the friends who were good helped me and the other girl get good. And we got good.

        The fact is, it took a lot of work. But we did it.

        Looking back at this comment, you were crying after TWO WEEKS of raiding about how tough Ulduar is, and how it’s destroying your guild. That really is so little time.

        Honestly, I imagine this was your last comment because once the encounters got nerfed, you started downing Razor/Ignis/XT, because Blizzard decided that it was too hard.

        I don’t really know what to say to someone who doesn’t actually want to be challenged.

        Reply
        • 49. zik  |  May 26, 2009 at 5:31 pm

          “Honestly, I imagine this was your last comment because once the encounters got nerfed, you started downing Razor/Ignis/XT, because Blizzard decided that it was too hard.”

          Or it could be because the thread is a month old :)

          This post got 2 days of frequent replies, I think it’s done it’s job!

          Reply
          • 50. Brez  |  June 2, 2009 at 9:32 am

            o snapz. i saw it late.

            Reply
  • 51. Traxex  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    I agree and said that before.
    Ulduar is guild breaking, the AoE and 1-shot every boss in Naxx is. People forgot how to raid, and they create Ulduar and people blame Blizz that it’s “to hard for all us 99% casuals”.

    Our first week we downed the first 4 bosses outside, Kologarn and Iron Assembly, putting us at 6/14. I think that week we also got our 10-man to General. Then, the 2nd week of Ulduar, our 25-man beat Mimiron and were at General before the reset.

    It was pretty tuned when it came out, but all the “we beat naxx so we r gud” guilds QQ’d, and every patch and update is a nerf to the zone.

    Reply
    • 52. Brae  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:48 pm

      I’m sure you only raided 10 hours to get all of that in right?

      Ulduar is a HUGE step up from naxx. If it scales like this for the next two in Wrath we will have diverged completely from what made naxx great for the vast majority – accessible raid content.

      By the way, if you’ve ever posted on a forum you’re hardcore.

      The vast majority of WoW players have no idea what forums are, and that is OK. They are everyday people who want to have fun with their friends. Hard modes for challenge, Normal for friends and family.

      Reply
      • 53. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:42 pm

        Nothing I’ve read suggests that Ulduar was intended to be accessible. Naxx was intended to be accessible, but Ulduar was intended to be cleared by players in Naxx-level gear. In this respect, Ulduar is only accessible insofar that Naxx was easy to start, easy to master, and easy to farm.

        Granted, the step up from Naxx to Ulduar is nowhere near as steep as the step up from Gruul’s Lair to SSC/TK. It’s very obvious that Blizzard is scaling down the mainstream raid content and offering hard modes as an alternative to the so-called “elites.” I think most raiders are fine with that, or at least have come to terms with it.

        I don’t think Ulduar is too hard. I do think my raid has forgotten how to wipe gracefully; that’s something we’ll need to work on in the upcoming weeks and months.

        Reply
  • 54. Total Tuesday Co-Out « Secret Agent Cat  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    [...] Total Tuesday Co-Out First, go read Fel Fire’s not-so-latest post. [...]

    Reply
  • 55. brendon  |  April 28, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    If your guild has been killed by Ulduar in two weeks regardless of the apparent difficulty, the guild was weak to begin with.

    Was TBC that long ago? Every guild did not fall apart when Sunwell was released. On my server, only a handful of guilds even raided Sunwell. No one had the expectation they could step in the first week and clear the instance. If your guild cannot handle wiping on a boss for the duration of a raid, go back to Naxx.

    Reply
  • 56. Mark  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Seriously, if Ulduar is breaking your guild, I don’t know how to be kind about this: Your guild is bad, undergeared, or both.

    It is.

    Let that sink in.

    My guild, unlike yours, is decent. It’s not elite. And with <11 hours of raiding per week right now, it’s not even remotely close to hardcore.

    We farmed Naxx from start to end like many of you. In fact, through persistence, cat herding, and a bit of luck, we got the meta achievement. We had a lot of people in Naxx/Maly/Sarth best in slot, but certainly not everyone with every item.

    In two weeks, we have 9 bosses dead. The better guilds on our server are 13/14. Several “lesser” guilds are anywhere from 2-8 bosses in.

    We are wiping again — like you. We are just wiping less than you. Fusion is wiping less than us. They are quite frankly probably laughing at how easy the instance is on easy mode.

    I don’t know how you think the game is supposed to be designed, but I have a newsflash for you: Skill is not binary; it’s on a continuum. If the instance was designed assuming binary skill, my guild and the 50,000 guilds between your bad guild and Fusion would be miserable. We’d have cleared the easy modes and yet would probably never get many (any?) hard modes.

    Is Ulduar perfect? Of course not. But two weeks in, it appears Blizzard nailed the continuum model of skill almost perfectly. World-best guilds are a couple hard modes in. Really good guilds are at/near Yogg. Middling good guilds are 6-10 bosses in. So-so guilds are 2-5 bosses in. And bad guilds like yours can’t imagine ever killing Razorscale.

    I have a reality check for you. Every fight in BT took us between 1 and 3 weeks to beat. SSC / TK for us may have actually been worse. The difficulty of easy mode Ulduar is a small fraction of SSC/TK and isn’t even nearly on par with Black Temple (which was a very easy instance overall, altho I’ll admit we were terrible at Reliquary and I know many guiilds had “the one fight we hate”).

    When we are beating up 9 bosses in 2 weeks, the instance can’t possible be guild breaking unless your expectations are completely out of whack or you are terrible. It took us 2+ months to clear BT, why don’t you think about getting Yogg in 2 months instead of 2 hours? If you are terrible, why don’t you go back to Tier 7 content and set up some synthetic challenges to learn to raid better. Go beat Sarth 3D; I know you didn’t. Go do 6-minute Malygos. Learn to coordinate amid chaos, learn to DPS hard for an entire fight.

    And stop complaining. Thank goodness we have some challenge after Naxx: The Lich King version. Ulduar is the second-easiest raid zone ever and on easy mode will be beatable even by your bad guilds before the next raid zone ships. In fact, you’ll be farming Yogg if you can fix your entitlement problem.

    Reply
  • 57. Osmeric  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Those happy about the difficulty of Ulduar need to think for a bit.

    I think the difficulty has great potential to ruin WoW.

    Why? Because Ulduar, unlike Naxx, is tuned so that you can’t easily tolerate people who are underperforming (unless you are so overgeared you don’t need the gear that would drop). This means guilds will either have to bench or eject bad players. For casual, social guilds (meaning: guilds that don’t do this) this means the end of raiding. And given the dreadful state of PvP in LK, it’s raid or cancel for many people.

    And believe me, losing a large number of casuals is not going to improve your gaming experience. Far from it — those casuals fund a good chunk of WoW’s ongoing development.

    Reply
    • 58. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:57 pm

      Or perhaps those so-called “bad players” could expend some effort into becoming better players? There is a wealth of information out there (I bet I could name one excellent blog, forum or website for every spec of every class!). Seriously, It doesn’t require hardcore hours to “l2play”: in fact, some of the most prominent WoW bloggers and theorycrafters don’t raid often or at all.

      I know it’s easier said than done … but really, why should raid content be designed around the lowest common denominator? If it’s too accessible, then the challenge is removed — and at the end of the day, that’s what makes it fun. :)

      Ulduar isn’t going to break WoW. As Mark said, Ulduar is the second easiest raid zone released to date. If Sunwell didn’t ruin the game — heck, if the Karazhan key quest or Mount Hyjal attunements didn’t ruin the game! — then Ulduar certainly isn’t going to.

      Reply
  • 59. glynn  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    If someone left your guild because they like progression, can you truly be counted as friends? Sure you’re good acquaintences BUT- they have a friendship of convenience with you as they are not really there for the friendship…

    Reply
    • 60. Elleiras  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:02 pm

      I disagree.

      Your goals aren’t always going to coincide with your friends’ goals, in-game or in real life. If your friends decide to join a softball team instead of your bowling league (to borrow someone else’s metaphor) … are they no longer your friends? Or are they simply interested in something else, and looking for an outlet for their interests just as you are looking for one of yours?

      Reply
  • 61. Osmeric  |  April 28, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    If someone left your guild because they like progression, can you truly be counted as friends?

    Being in the same game with them would no longer be a consideration in keeping me subscribing, that’s for sure.

    Reply
  • 62. zik  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    I think it comes down to what’s the difference between a “casual” guild and a “hardcore” guild? In my mind, it’s mainly about time invested. Hardcores will raid 4 nights a week. Casuals, more like two nights. Other than that, expectations should be the same: show up on time with everything you need to raid. Do your job. Don’t stand in the freaking fire.

    I think the big problem is more expectations. Raiding is not supposed to be succession of loot pinatas, where you try a boss for the first time and get him down in 2-3 attempts. It’s supposed to take a while to learn the fights. The content takes a long time to create, if it could be burned through in a month of raiding by the most casual of guilds, then we’d spend 4 months doing nothing, waiting for the next content to burn through in a similarly short amount of time. And WoW would lose subscribers because there would be nothing interesting to do, no challenges.

    The fact is, some people don’t like to do instances before they are on farm. They just want to breeze through and get loot. That’s fine, just recruit enough members so that you have a core progression team that can figure out all the strategies and get the place on farm, then rotate in the less hardcore people after a while so they get to raid and see the content. Everyone wins. The casual people may get upset by this, you can mitigate this by setting the expectations for being in the progression group: you must be minmaxed on all available gear, enchants, and gems, you must be specced appropriately for your role, you must show up on time with all consumables, and you must be prepared to wipe repeatedly on the same boss for long periods of time before victory. Then allow people in who agree to this. Then there will be no problems with expectations of easy success on the part of your raiding group.

    Reply
  • 63. Airjoker  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Despite all the moaning and gnashing of teeth, Ulduar is fine. Personally, I am tired of the whining and crying that has consistently broken this game down since roughly TBC was released. Between the cries for nerfs and changes to PvE due to arenas, I dunno which one is worse for the game’s raiding quality.

    People wail about content accessibility. Well, as far as I can tell there are no attunements, no prerequisites, nothing preventing anyone from getting into the dungeon. The only thing that is stopping people from experiencing content is ability.

    Ability to come prepared, ability to persevere, and perhaps even ability to play the game. Unlike what the media would have you believe, not everyone really is number one, not everyone is the best, and yes, those that do not make the cut in ability will lose. Sorry, that’s life. Same holds true for video games. Not everyone beat Gannon, or Mike Tyson, or Mother Brain.

    I am in a guild that only raids 6 hours a week. We have already toppled 4 of the 25 man bosses. On off nights we raid 10 man, and have dropped all but the last 3. This is not about spending your whole life raiding to be able to accomplish progression, it is about ability in general, as stated above.

    Since WoW is apparently fueled by 99% of the content not wanting a challenge, just wanting to walk through content such as Naxx, I would request that instead of whining about how hard it is, and crying for nerfs, put forth some real effort. If half as much effort was put into honestly giving all that was to be had at raiding instead of whining about how un-doable” Ulduar is, I bet a lot more content would have been conquered.

    Take time to watch and read the strats posted all over the web. Bring your flasks, pots, consumables and just be prepared. Actually research your character and know how to play it. Most of all bring your intestinal fortitude, and be prepared to wipe a few times.

    Video games that are too easy flat out suck. Quit trying to make this one too easy when there is nothing wrong with it. If you guys want to one shot everything, get a private server. Then you can “.kill” your way through all the content you like with no effort. Some of us enjoy working for and earning things, not having them handed to us.

    Reply
  • 64. Tagashi  |  April 28, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    The players are the problem. Raids are supposed to be hard. You are supposed to feel like you are doing something epic. This is why Wrath fails. I like raids that take months to figure out, not ones that I figure out in 2 weeks then start farming for gear. Am I the only one that thinks repeating the same raid over and over again is stupid? After the regular mode is done, then what? I get to repeat the same raid even more? For the most part, this is just a rehash of old boss mechanics. Nothing new to figure out, no interesting puzzles, and still a huge lack of need for utility abilities. I’m taking an extended break because of this expansion. I’m stating to feel that WoW just isn’t the game for me anymore….

    Reply
  • 65. Top Posts « WordPress.com  |  April 28, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    [...] The problem with Ulduar is Naxxramas. I love Ulduar. I love the scenery.  I love the lore — what I understand of it, anyway (I’ve never paid too [...] [...]

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  • 66. Crucifer  |  April 28, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    Zik hits the nail on the head, and does it gently.

    Reply
  • 67. Kurbstomp  |  April 28, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    Just downed Mimiron on 10-man last night and have raided Ulduar with two different guilds so I’ll toss in my perspective as a tank/melee.

    People with good awareness/response times are going to find Ulduar be about average difficulty. Usually people with these traits also understand the nuiances of their respective class. People with bad awareness/response times will find Ulduar very difficult to impossible.

    This is in large part to most of the challenge in the zone (on normal/heroic at least) to be revolved around movement and paying attention constantly on a very person to person level. The bosses themselves all have relatively simple strats unlike fights like Vashj or Kael.

    Naxx on the other hand required none of this, and neither does most of the game for that matter outside of higher tier raiding or pvp.

    From what I’ve seen in Ulduar is that people who pvp’d a lot during the loot pinata times of Naxx/Maly/3D are having no problem in Ulduar and find it pretty simple (again due to their constant engagment in a discipline that requires movement and attention).

    This is a player/discipline issue. Good players always are trying to be better regardless of how trivial content is at the time. Lazy players get lazy then struggle when the heat got turned up.

    Reply
  • 68. harpysnest  |  April 28, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    If people aren’t prepared to wipe repeatedly on new content then of course Ulduar will be an issue. Whilst the usual rules of “don’t stand in stuff” apply to a degree, like everything it takes practise.

    I do however feel that Blizzard haven’t handled the hardmode/normal mode stuff correctly. From my albeit limited hard mode experiences so far, the hardmodes seem to be normal mode plus extra gear check, which I found disappointing, i.e. if you can kill it on normal mode with time you will manage the hardmode. I think i was hoping for something more technical/exciting than that to make the instance stay fresh longer.

    That said, if Ulduar kills guilds this fast, I can’t help but question what kind of community they have/had. We have had some rocky times with our GM imploding all over the place during Ulduar wipes, yet no one alt f4ed, no one left the guild (and there are plenty of similarly progressed guilds on my server to go to), we just got on with it and killed stuff.

    Unlike Naxx, Ulduar needs all of your raiders to be on the same page, sharing the same goals. If some of those raiders are people who aren’t interested in improving their playstyle, don’t turn up with consumables etc, then yes there will be friction.

    Personally, I’m glad it was tuned harder than Naxx. I raid for a challenge, pushing myself is the fun part of it and that’s what makes each kill so much sweeter. Although I do sympathise with anyone whose guild doesn’t survive, but raiding Ulduar isn’t mandatory.

    Reply
  • 69. Mark  |  April 28, 2009 at 11:05 pm

    Congrats bads, you got a nerf to the front half. In 2 weeks, you will demand — and get — a nerf to the back half.

    You honestly think the game is fun when the bosses roll over and hand out loot? Cause “the rest of us” — and no we are not 4%, more like 40% — don’t.

    Stop the madness, Blizzard, the tuning was fine. Now? Well, we did Emalon. It was Archavon easy. Am I looking forward to Ulduar this week? NO. I’m sure everything nerfed will collapse like wet paper bags.

    Ugh.

    Reply
    • 70. zik  |  April 29, 2009 at 11:07 am

      “Well, we did Emalon. It was Archavon easy.”

      That’s too bad, I thought Emalon was a fun challenge. Archavon was BORING.

      Reply
  • 71. cerinne  |  April 29, 2009 at 12:33 am

    It sounds to me like Naxxramas’ ease masked a lack of dedication to conquering content in your guild, and only now that that mask has been lifted are you seeing that they aren’t as motivated or willing to do what is necessary for the guild’s benefit as you first believed. I’m not saying this is bad; just that if this attitude bugs you, then you probably want something different from the game than your guild does. I’m a recruitment officer for my guild, which is fairly hardcore despite raiding “only” 4 days a week, and this is exactly the attitude I work hard to filter out–people who want in when things are on farm, not when there’s learning to be done. That’s just not our guild’s approach.

    But you’re right partly about Naxxramas being the problem, though I think that’s deflecting the blame–most raid tiers teach us things as players, but Naxxramas really didn’t build on any of the previous lessons (aside from, obviously, Naxxramas itself). Part of it is also the expectation that the existence of hard modes precludes ANY necessity to spend effort learning the base fight, which isn’t and shouldn’t be true.

    Reply
  • 72. Tsaar  |  April 29, 2009 at 2:57 am

    Hey guys,

    I have mixed feelings about this subject. The dificculty for ulduar isnt the problem in my opinion. Its the enourmous amount of guilds, and the 10man versions of every raid instance.

    Back in endgame TBC, and i only know this from my own server, there were about 3-4 top guilds on each faction doing the endgame. Whether it was TK/SCC, MH, BT, the Sunwell, only a handfull of guilds were even attempting this, with the rest of the guilds *a tier behind them* (or more).

    If you wanted to get in one of those guilds, you had to work your way up there, gear requirements, strict attendance rules and whatnot. It was, and still is actually, hard to find 25 skilled players, that get along, have a good attitude and that you enjoy raiding with.

    Fast forward to the current situation :

    Seen any 25man guild NOT clearing naxx? There are just too many people raiding at the moment – that dont want to be raiding endgame. When the going gets tough they dont want to go anymore.

    They dont want to spend that much on repairs, flasks, bufffood, or spend time learning a fight. Alot of these players will leave guilds.

    Good or bad? Naxx is still there for those who just want to do stuff in a group at an entry level. It would be disappointing to never see difficulty change.

    Reply
  • 73. WOWGIRL  |  April 29, 2009 at 10:27 am

    I love ulduar now. But Blizz is going to nerf it. They already began to do that. And more nerfs are being announced every day.
    =(
    My guild downed 9 bosses there too.

    I love raiding, but, I was almost falling sleep on my last Naxx runs. Too easy. I had hope that Ulduar will be more difficult. it is difficult now, and Blizz don’t like it.

    Sorry about my english. =)

    Reply
  • 74. Mogresh  |  April 29, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    The hardest part of ulduar is having to tell people no. Most people don’t like saying no. It’s a lot easier to say yes to someone especially in a casual raiding guild with friends. Naxx is easy to the point where it facilitates the “yes men”. When was the last time you turned down a freshly minted 80 who just hit their hit cap for naxx 25? You don’t because you don’t have to. It’s easier and fosters more goodwill among guild members to let them come.

    Ulduar is the opposite. You have to say No. That’s the only way you will progress as a raid. If 75% of the people in your raid are ready for ulduar and have the skill to do it, you are still going to fail 100% of the time. You have to suck it up and say No to the people who can’t get out of the fire, and who cant target the mob when it has to be targetted or you won’t make it past Flame Piniatathan.

    It’s going to hurt feelings to say that your friends cant come play, but it’s the same as any sport you’ve ever played. A good team benches the people who can’t play at the level needed, and works with them outside of game situations to improve their skills. If their skills improve they get to play. Thats Ulduar in a nutshell. Ulduar is the game, Naxx is the practice.

    Reply
  • 75. Jeebus  |  April 29, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    @ Mark…

    Cry more. Did you even read the original article?

    Reply
  • [...] on the same subject, because Elleiras over at Fel Fire just saved me a whole lot of typing:  The problem with Ulduar is Naxxramas. So, no, the problem isn’t Ulduar [...]

    Reply
  • 77. ariedan  |  May 2, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    I definitely agree with everything you said.

    We haven’t run into too many problems with Ulduar- most people are excited and eager to find a boss that’s not one-shottable. But we ran into Naxx-bred problems our first week, when people weren’t focused or trying because they were able to get away with half-assed attempts in Naxx. Fortunately for us, people didn’t need to be told to put on their game faces, but that first week was pure misery.

    Reply
  • 78. chriso  |  May 13, 2009 at 9:33 am

    its just a question of perspective. some of us have been here from pre bc,, and we remember wiping for a few weeks to a month on a single boss. remember mags anyone?
    but even so, look at naxx the first time around, you had to be doing your 5 mans and baron runs for T.5, just so you could survive in MC. you then had to clear MC just to survive BWL.,, and believe me,, that bloody figure 8 on the first boss did my head in. then it was naxx. take a look around in there, it would have been so much work to make, for only a very dedicated few to see. blizz probably wanted ppl to enjoy what was never attainable before,
    however i ramble sometimes,, naxx dulled skills like cc that are now again required, or didnt teach for those of you new to the game.. so you just have to sharpen/ learn them and keep going,
    how good did it feel to destroy naxx this time around, seriously.. it didnt,,
    downing rag the first time,, (after 2 months of attempts, i might add) we crashed vent with all the cheering,, that just doesnt happen now,
    so look on the bright side of this new content, its going to make you THINK your way around things, you have to trust ppl to do their jobs, it all boils down to basic teamwork guys.
    sure, its going to take hours to learn new bosses, weeks or months,, but when you finally get them, its going to be so much better for the wait, stick with it. if you cease having fun,, its no longer a game is it.
    oh, and if you made it to the end of this post, ty for putting up with my wayward 2am thoughts

    Reply
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